Strange attack behavior

Thanks for the tip. In fact it would be useful for example that just above zero on the knobs there was a minor sensitivity or in any case find a way to improve this thing.

Honestly, I’m just double-clicking the knob and typing zero manually, a lot easier
And regarding the phase problem, I don’t know if you guys saw that but in the phase tab, there are 2 sliders, 1 for the phase offset and another for the phase randomness Vital_2021-04-19_02-07-34
Set the phase randomness to 0% to make it so the phase stays the same
Hope that helped :slight_smile:

Hey thanks for the help, but yeah we know this.
Also, you might be confused here because double-clicking in Vital does not open the ‘type in value’ box. You have to right click to do this. It’s the Melda plugins that do it via double-click.

I have seen the same apparent random phase behavior. A bit unsure still if it also could be the envelope not resetting properly. It is troublesome for sounds with a sharp attack (bases, kick drums, clicks).

It occurs both with the oscillator and sample as sound source (try both, e.g. with a hihat pattern, in the attached preset)BA Envelope Issue.vital (131.7 KB)

Phase randomization set to 0. I used Vital 1.0.7 in Logic 10.6 and Ableton 11 on Mac OS Big Sur (intel).

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This is exactly the point!

After several attempts I can finally confirm that sometimes lowering the Deelay knob by moving the mouse does not solve the problem but with a double click it does!

For me, an update that improves the handling of the knob would be welcome to avoid this annoying problem.

Vital - Bug Distortion.vital (244.9 KB)

I made another attempt by activating the distortion and although the Phase Randomization and Deelay values are at 0, the problem reoccurred … Can anyone confirm using my attached preset? Thanks all.

I can verify that the issue in my example was resolved by ensuring that the pre-delay on the envelope was set to zero by double clicking on it.

I could also verify that the “inconsistent transient” behaviour was reintroduced by modulating the distortion effect in your example g.lorenzo.pro, despite the Delay parameter being set to 0 for both envelopes.

Less importantly, but if someone else wants to check, the example was pretty aggravating to my hearing and a bit difficult to hear, so I changed it slightly to one with shorter decay times - and a visualisation of the shifting frequency response by adding an eq after the distortion to show the spectrum (attached)

Vital - Bug Distortion v2.vital (245.0 KB)

Exactly… You can hear it quite by ear and most importantly you notice it using a spectrum analyzer or just looking at the integrated top right analyzer. Without distortion I had solved the problem but with active distortion it no longer seems to work…

Also I have just experienced that by setting the initialization preset (with sine wave) and resetting the phase randomization and deelay parameters, looking at the analyzer in the upper right during playback there is still a phase shift… This is very strange!
Either there is some setting in Reaper that is not suitable for this synth or there is actually a bug. See the attached video to understand better.https://vitalpublic.s3.dualstack.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/original/2X/1/14c0028d2b208684bf84fb198c53728dc20161f6.mp4

@g.lorenzo.pro the long releases are likely to induce weird things. When a new MIDI note comes in, you can actually hear random phase from the OSC resetting while still it is still playing. And you can hear the voices interfere with each other.
On your “Vital - Bug Distortion” patch, if you set both releases to zero and set short decays (60ms ish), there is no issues whatsoever. Randomness is from the MIDI input (punny humans :laughing:).
Also, you can try using ‘Legato’ so that the OSC is not reset when you hit the same key a second time.
You are at the limit of what a synth can do here. Are you trying to make drum sounds?

Yes drum sounds. I think I solved by increasing the Voices because probably the 8 Voices weren’t enough using high releases but I am not entirely convinced that I have completely solved the problem, maybe I will be wrong…

Here is another example of variable transient, modulating the oscillator or sample pitch using a fast envelope. I ensured that the Delay parameter was 0. Is this expected to work at audio rate? Pitch mod - transient variability.vital (591.9 KB)

@benoit.roehr I observed the same issue as g.lorenzo.pro in his example, also after setting the decay to shorter times and voices to 1 (to avoid voice overlaps), as indicated in my response above.

@g.lorenzo.pro My testing is not in Reaper, but in Logic… so I don’t think it is reaper specific

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For this sound I have no problems, I always hear it the same way without any kind of phase shift!

Did you mean my “pitch modulation” example? Yes sorry i see I saved it with the osc activated. I can hear a transient variability only when modulating the sample pitch. Perhaps that is not “audio rate safe”…? OK if so.

Of your last preset no problem of phase for me.
With this other example, if i play via a MIDI keyboard, I perceive a strong phase shift, while if I play the sequencer, the sound is perfect. Maybe there is an option in Reaper that handles this via MIDI??Last preset.vital (244.9 KB)

@Tytel said the pitches are modulated at audio rate in this thread.

I didn’t understood what you wanted to say here. Can you clarify?

It is possible that there is an intermittent bug somewhere, because I remember having hunted a phase issue for hours, but after cleaning the patches and trying to pinpoint it, well, I couldn’t reproduce it. It was feeling like Vital was put is some kind of ‘mode’ where the phase would be seemingly random, and after reloading the patch it was gone…

@g.lorenzo.pro
What kind of drums?
Also, don’t rely on the oscilloscope on the top of the windows on long notes. It is free running and is not really reliable to check phase. You need shorter bleeps to see the phase at the ADSR open. I can’t hear randomness in your latest video.

So to summarize:

From what I have tried, it is a good thing first of all to set the phase randomization and the deelay knob with the double click of the mouse to zero.

Once this is done, playing via the MIDI keyboard I hear phase shifting but while playing MIDI item from sequencer the problem seems to disappear…

So my conclusion is that I was probably wrong during the initial setup of the sound but I would like to try to understand the reason for the phase shift when I play with my MIDI keyboard.

There is probably some setting in Reaper to change, right?

@g.lorenzo.pro
I couldn’t reproduce the phase shift with MIDI on your latest patch. :woozy_face:
Can you try this one and tell if you are experiencing weird transients? Last preset - ShortenedPlop.vital (244.9 KB)

With this i hear all perfect, noone problem from MIDI or sequencer… I don’t know what is my problem :frowning:

There might be something fishy with your keyboard yes. But I can’t help you there as I don’t see what could be wrong. I would say try with the integrated virtual MIDI keyboard so you’ll at least know if it is coming from Reaper or your MIDI USB keyboard. And also record some MIDI input from the hardware keyboard and check the data with the MIDI event list view to see what it is doing exactly.

Ok how can I see what exactly my MIDI keyboard does? Anyway see the video now despite all the checks the problem has arisen again I don’t know what to do, with the other synths I’ve never had these problems I can’t understand the main problem what it is!

Last preset problem.vital (244.9 KB)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C8mPpLScAWgU709ta5YCFXSk9yTs3uhR/view?usp=sharing

And listening to the newly exported audio file completely changes the phase with respect to playback!

I have now solved the problem by resetting the HOLD knob to 0 again despite it being already set to 0 … In my opinion an update is absolutely necessary.

@g.lorenzo.pro yeah you also had a bit of hold in the last patch you shared, but it shouldn’t make any phase change.
Can you share the whole reaper project? I’ll take a look at it.